Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1993 15:53:04 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jean Dartnall Subject: Re: "Quick'n'Dirty" Indexes and Estimati In-Reply-To: <199311231902.AA07381@jculib.jcu.edu.au> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I don't pretend to have a complete answer to the question 'what constitutes a quality index' but I suggest that it ought to include the concept of the index to a particular book being appropriate for the likely users of that book and index. This seems to me a natural extension of our general philosophy about indexing to serve the user. This would, I think, mean that the index to a general science book would probably be shorter and less detailed than an index to a specialist science book of the same length. I wonder though how closely the size of an index is connected to the time taken to produce it. Put another way, the time one takes to read a book for indexing, choose appropriate terms, consult references and ponder is the same whether the result is going to be a short index or a long one, only the later aspects of writing and editing are different. This is a long way of saying can there be such a thing as a 'quick and dirty' index, only 'slow and dirty'? Jean Jean Dartnall Information Services Librarian James Cook University Townsville Queensland lbjad@jculib.jcu.edu.au ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1993 15:54:49 ECT Reply-To: Michael Kalen Smith Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Kalen Smith Subject: Re: "Quick'n'Dirty" Indexes and Estimations ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- [...snip...] > Just out of curiosity, can the rest of you describe to a publisher >what is included for a basic indexing job, a enhanced indexing job, and >a comprehensive, in-depth, and detailed indexing job? Does a 100 page >popular science book deserve the same type of index as a 100 page book >on the cell directed to students and educators? Should a publisher be >forced to pay an indexer 40$ to index a 100 page book that will sell for >3.99 at the grocery checkout? Is the idea of "quality" the same for >every type of material that can be indexed? [...snip...] >Hannah King >SUNY HSC Library at Syracuse >kingh@snysyrv1 >kingh@vax.cs.hscsyr.edu >766 Irving Avenue >Syracuse, NY 13210 I do back-of-the-book work for a wide range of academic & commercial publishers, everything from sports biogs for Harcourt to the Edmund Husserl series for Indiana Univ Pr. And no, they're not at ALL alike -- but they're all the best quality indexes I can produce. It simply involves a shift of mental gears. "High quality" for an intensive study of Mark Twain's days in Nevada works out to indexing about 8pp/hour, with lots of cross-refs and re-re-editing. For the semi-ghosted anecdotal memoirs of Chuck Knox, it works out to maybe 15pp/hr, mostly proper names and details about play-off games. And yes, I charge everyone the same rate; it all balances out in my accounting, even though it doesn't all come from the same publisher, and I have no personal problem with that. My rates are pretty middle-of-the-pack (NOT $40/hr...!) and I've never had an editor tell me I charge too much. I also raise my rates by about $.25-$.50/page each year and I've gotten no complaints about that either. I'm part of the increased cover price of books, just like the paper merchants.... Works for me, anyway. Mike ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Michael Kalen Smith / Dallas, TX Internet: mksmith@taproot.win.net / CompuServe: 73177,366 *** It doesn't TAKE all kinds; we just HAVE all kinds *** ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1993 10:25:05 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Norm Howden Subject: Indexer Resources ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- One of the variables in indexing, both database indexing and book indexing, is the amount of intellectual resource devoted to the task. Some of the resource comes from the indexer's background and some of it from the materials collected to augment that background to address the job at hand. We emphasize using vocabulary resources and conceptual resources for database indexers and searchers. What sort of resources are needed to index a book? What do you use? On a related topic, Barbara Cohen sometime back was looking for guidance on special symbols in a book about computer stuff. The Lotus manual might be a good example - it has as the very first heading "Symbols and special characters" under which are presented in indented format the text and symbol version of each entry, ie., "backslash (\), 1-15, 2-228". The names of functions, keys, and other features are entered alphabetically, ie., "ALT key", "{APPENDBELOW}", and "@FIND". Not to be overlooked is the possibility of using a hierarchical list to display commands that appear in a software menu system or a specialized index of the command words that appear in a command language. +---------------------------------------------------------------+ | Norman Howden | | | | School of Library and Information Sciences | | University of North Texas | | howden@lis.unt.edu (817) 565-2760 | +---------------------------------------------------------------+ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1993 10:25:37 ECT Reply-To: mrowland@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: mrowland@aol.com Subject: Re: "Quick'n'Dirty" ... ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >And yes, I charge everyone the same rate; it all >balances out in my accounting, even though it >doesn't all come from the same publisher, and I >have no personal problem with that. Michael Kalen Smith / Dallas, TX Internet: mksmith@taproot.win.net / CompuServe: 73177,366 Mike-- And I thought I was the only one who did this--charge pretty much the same for tough and easy jobs. Actually I ~don't~ think it is good practice. Clients should know what they are paying for. I just don't know quite how to change the situation. I do try to get higher rates for more technical or more time-consuming jobs, but I am not always successful and tend to rationalize the low rates on (for instance) an in-depth analysis of literature trends in Ecuador (a subject of some interest to me) on the basis that I am making $40-50 an hour indexing a junior high school textbook. I could refuse to do the literary book, but I am enjoying it. I could charge less for the textbook, but.....how could I afford to do the other book if I did? (Besides, it is a complicated index that takes some intelligence to organize, and I do believe in being paid for my ability as well as my time.) I also consider my rates to be middle-of-the-pack, but I ~have~ lost work because they were considered too high. As a result, some publishers who like my work tend to call me only for difficult or rush projects--when they can't count on anyone else. But, easy or hard, time-consuming or not, I do believe in providing a high-quality index for all clients. And I have been enjoying this discussion. Marilyn Rowland freelance indexer/writer mrowland@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1993 10:27:50 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kaye Sykes Subject: USDA Indexing Course ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Hi all, I'm working as a tech writer at a software company. All the writers here index their own books, and, since none of us has any training in indexing, our indexes are pretty weak. Someone on this list recently referred to the correspondence courses offered by the USDA graduate school. I've got their booklet now, and I'm interested, especially since they are willing to accommodate long-distance learners. They offer two indexing courses: Basic Indexing and Applied Indexing. Does anyone know if these courses are worthwhile? And how about their editing courses? As a computer person coming into writing, I know very little about the mechanics of editing, printing, layout, etc. Of course I'm learning on-the-job, but I was wondering if any of the USDA courses in this area are worthwhile? If anyone has any experience with these courses - or knows of other courses available by correspondence - I'd appreciate your information. Thanks in advance, Kaye Sykes (kaye@uniface.nl) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1993 16:56:02 ECT Reply-To: hairylarry@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: hairylarry@aol.com Subject: Re: USDA Indexing Course ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I have experience with the USDA Basic Indexing course. The course is definitely worthwhile. The lessons are graded and critiqued by freelance professional indexers with many years of experience. Included in the course are the Chicago Manual of Style and Webster's style manual. The only negative comment is that they are busier than ever and the turnaround on lessons can be several weeks. You cannot really focus continuously on the material due to these delays. Still worth it, tho'. Good luck, Larry Harrison Freelance indexer Hairylarry@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1993 16:56:30 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: maryann@mnrosdp.revisor.state.mn.us Subject: Re: Readability, literacy, and indexes ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- -------- I've just received a copy of the report, "Adult Literacy in America," which presents the results of the National Adult Literacy Survey. I'm reading it with a view to what it might tell us about readers' ability to comprehend and use indexes. I'm sure there are other studies out there about readability, reading skill, and index use, but I don't have much time to look for them. I'm not interested in matters of typography and layout, but in the effect of particular grammatical constructions on the read- er's ability to understand the index. I'm familiar with the general literature about readability and document design. Can anybody out there point me to some relevant studies or to a good specific bibliography? Thanks for any help you can give me.