Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1993 08:52:37 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Douglas P. Wilson" Subject: Interpedia list oversubscription crisis now resolved and RFD out ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- This is a follow-up to a previous message about the Interpedia group project and mailing list. The previous posting was too successful, attracting over 1000 new subscribers to the mailing list, and causing something of a meltdown! Many new subscribers quickly fled the list in apparent panic as their mailboxes filled to overflowing. Others found it impossible to unsubscribe because of a bottleneck in request processing. All these problems are now solved, according to the list manager, Doug Luce, who will now act as a moderator, issuing a single message each day that will contain all substantial submitted messages for that day. All subscribers will now receive just the one low-noise message a day, called the Interpedia Digest. In other news: -- R L Samuell has established an archive of the Interpedia mailing list and related newsgroup messages. To reach it: gopher twinbrook.cis.uab.edu or telnet twinbrook.cis.uab.edu 70 -- the Request For Discussion for comp.infosystems.interpedia has gone out, and is being discussed on news.groups Please take part in this discussion. -- we have received an offer of a site to hold the first set of Interpedia articles, and soon will be able to accept submissions -- details to be announced soon on the Interpedia mailing list (see below for subscription information) -- other mailing lists for the Interpedia project are being set up, and will include an unmoderated list for quick turnaround of new developments Apologies to those who failed to get subscribed, were unable to unsubscribe, or got swamped with unwanted messages. The explosion of interest and rapid development of this project were beyond all expectations, and beyond our ability to cope. Find out what all this excitement is all about! New subscribers to the Interpedia mailing list are welcome. Please send requests to: interpedia-request@telerama.lm.com with the body of the text in this format: subscribe your.name@your.site.domain (To unsubscribe, please use the the same address and analogous format.) Subscribers will receive just one message a day, containing interesting discussions, which they may participate in by e-mail. Whether you subscribe or not, please participate in the discussion of comp.infosystems.interpedia on news.groups Doug Wilson dwilson@crc.sd68.nanaimo.bc.ca or dwilson@chaserv.almanac.bc.ca Subscription requests to: interpedia-request@telerama.lm.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1993 08:53:35 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: Indexers' BBB? ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Per Larry Harrison's comments: I'm not sure that I want to see ASI become a trade association. Maybe we need a different kind of organization for that sort of thing. ASI *IS* an nonprofit educational association and we've demonstrated over and over our continuing need for one. Perhaps someone with some free time on their hands (between indexes that are off schedule, have short turn around times, and the like?) could get it rolling. I'd be glad to belong to BOTH organizations, but I'd see them as different creatures. Barbara E. Cohen becohen@well.sf.ca.us ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1993 08:54:42 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hannah King Subject: Re: "Quick'n'Dirty" Indexes and Estimating Time ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Whew! I guess my idea on giving the customer what the customer can afford has not been received terribly well. I think some of you may be responding not to what I wrote but to what you believe about the value of indexing. A good index, a perfect index, is priceless. Skilled indexers are few and far between and their time is worth far more than $10 an hour. However, I am not as skilled as I'd like to be because I am not a full time indexer. In my estimation, for this particular project, $10 an hour was a fair charge. That's why I didn't agree to do it for less. Another problem is that this particular academic journal covering a highly specialized area does not provide a big enough return to cover the cost of a highly detailed index with numerous cross-references, entry terms, scope notes, and double postings. I believe "the poor" have a right to a basic "good enough" index if that's all they can afford. I can do an index that is accurate and helpful to the user and charge less for one than I do for another that includes introductory remarks, more detail, lots of double postings, and other "luxuries." I just don't believe every index has to provide the same level of "fineness." Just as there are generic drugs and brand name drugs, there can be generic, genral purpose indexes ___if that's all your customer can afford___. And, I believe I can offer a lower rate just to get jobs that give me practice indexing. I think rejecting an indexer because they worked for a publsiher you don't like is somewhat hasty. Why not ask to look at a sample index before you decide to punish a fellow indexer for working for lower rates than you -- an expert -- approve of. Hannah King SUNY HSC Library at Syracuse kingh@snysyrv1 kingh@vax.cs.hscsyr.edu 766 Irving Avenue Syracuse, NY 13210 kingh@snysyrv1 315-464-7109 315-464-7199 (fax) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1993 15:14:33 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jessica Milstead <76440.2356@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: "Quick'n'Dirty" Indexes and Estimati ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Hannah, Yes, you did rouse many of us with the idea of "quick and dirty," as well as the idea that *any* professional's time might be worth only $10/hour, even if the person is not highly experienced. Certainly, not every client can afford the "ideal" index, but they are all entitled to have the index they can afford be of good quality, just as you expect a generic drug to do its job. In my business, I frequently have to negotiate price with a client who cannot or will not afford what I consider the optimum (not the same as the ideal) job. We negotiate down the size of the assignment, not its quality -- and I make sure that the client fully understands what they are getting and what they are not getting. For instance, if the client can only afford a minimal index, perhaps you could propose an index to the subjects of the articles as a whole, rather than to the content of the articles. Then you can make a good index that is shallow -- and write an introduction that makes it clear to the user what to expect. Jessica Milstead ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1993 13:54:42 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LJMCCLAI@ucs.indiana.edu Subject: Indexing the Internet ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- While some minimal indexing is being done on Gopher, I find that when I search it, I come up with a lot of irrelevant responses or nothing comes up at all even though I know it is on the Internet. A great deal of vocabulary control and consistent, predicatable indexing is needed badly. I know that right now the Mann Library at Cornell University is working on a "distributed indexing" project which they will attempt to use to organize the net. Although I have read some articles on this subject, is anyone out there really familiar with this type of indexing who could give me some more things to read. Perhaps there is another listserv I don't know about which would better be able to answer my questions. Thanks, Lisa McClain (ljmcclai@indiana.edu) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1993 13:55:16 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susannah Skyer Subject: ANSI/NISO indexing standard ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Is there an ftp site/ www site / other electronic archive from which the latest ANSI/NISO indexing standard can be retrieved? What is the revision level of the current standard? Is it still a draft? How much has it changed since Draft #3.1, 4/20/93 (distributed at an indexing talk at the STC annual conf in Dallas)? Are there other indexing standards? Where can they be obtained? Thanks very much, Susannah Skyer ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1993 13:55:49 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Chet W. Cady" Subject: Specifying what clients get and what they don't ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Jessica Milstead wrote > In my business, I frequently have to negotiate price with a client who > cannot or will not afford what I consider the optimum (not the same as the > ideal) job. We negotiate down the size of the assignment, not its quality -- > and I make sure that the client fully understands what they are getting and > what they are not getting. I'd like to know how you (Jessica--because you brought it up--and anyone else--because I know there are a variety of ways to do it) make sure your clients know what they're getting (and aren't getting). Is it merely an oral agreement, or do you put it in writing? I guess my main question is just how detailed do you get? Could you share an example of a contract (cross out a client's name) that shows how you define what you're doing? Thanks! Chet Cady cady@oclc.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1993 13:56:25 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hannah King Subject: Re: "Quick'n'Dirty" Indexes and Estimati ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Jessica's response is indicative to me of the major headache of indexing -- the meaning of words. For me an index to the subjects of articles and not heir content (meaning to me using the main headings and subheadings but little or nothing in the columns, figures, illustrations, etc.) is a "quick and dirty" index. "Less than optimum" means to me "less quality." But ... what is a "quality" index and what is a "quick and dirty" index lies much in the eyes of the user. Jessica's point that the introduction to the index should indicate the limits of the index is well made. However, publishers often "order" an index without an introduction when they want a "quick and dirty" index. Just out of curiosity, can the rest of you describe to a publisher what is included for a basic indexing job, a enhanced indexing job, and a comprehensive, in-depth, and detailed indexing job? Does a 100 page popular science book deserve the same type of index as a 100 page book on the cell directed to students and educators? Should a publisher be forced to pay an indexer 40$ to index a 100 page book that will sell for 3.99 at the grocery checkout? Is the idea of "quality" the same for every type of material that can be indexed? One other thought, WAIS, GOPHER, ARCHIE, and Veronica are the main retrieval tools for the Internet. In my opinion, they are very much quick and dirty indexes. They were designed and developed for free by people who "just did it," who enjoyed enhancing access to a new world even if they were never paid a dime. Certainly, these tools need to be refined, but without them many of us would have spent much more time and effort trying to telnet and ftp around the Internet. Hannah King SUNY HSC Library at Syracuse kingh@snysyrv1 kingh@vax.cs.hscsyr.edu 766 Irving Avenue Syracuse, NY 13210 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1993 13:56:57 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Resent-From: Charlotte Skuster Comments: Originally-From: FACN002 at SAUPM00 From: Charlotte Skuster ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Dear List: I am looking for an abstracting/indexing service that specializes in technical writing. Someone on the TECHWR-L list suggested that INDEX-L people m ight be able to help. Bob Hilden in Dhahran ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1993 14:29:53 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Norm Howden Subject: Re: Indexing the Internet ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Lisa, I'm just guessing, but the travail with Gopher stems from the hybridizing of two completely different modes of access by people who are not by trade subject access specialists (read that as librarians). The menu system is a linear access system, much like a card catalog. To organize it effectively would require facet analysis and subsequent grouping of entries into logical clusters or facets. Someone once talked about applying the Dewey Decimal System, which is a linear access tool because then there would, optimally, be only one location for each entry. If the software were more capable, it could be done in a hypertext and there could be a polyhierarchy which would allow access to the same entry from different super- and sub- topics. From a computer-based random access viewpoint the system should have index terms applied to each entry that are descriptive enough to allow fine distinctions to be made. The index terms, along with words from the item entry title and any descriptive text could be placed in the central index that Gopher searches. To use this method effectively requires good Boolean search capabilities. A good reference to some of the basics of subject access can be found in "The Subject Approach to Information" by A.C. Foskett. +---------------------------------------------------------------+ | Norman Howden | | | | School of Library and Information Sciences | | University of North Texas | | howden@lis.unt.edu (817) 565-2760 | +---------------------------------------------------------------+ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1993 14:30:53 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Norm Howden Subject: Re: Indexing the Internet ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Lisa, I know the last message didn't really addess the question you asked, so forgive an old prof for rattling on... The distributed indexing that is going on is probably related to Internet addessing, so you might check into one of the Internet newsgroups that support Gopher and ask how the Gopher indexes are set up. My guess is that you'll find some mechanism is being set up to do what is done with mailing addresses in the Internet, ie., keep a central database that is updated automatically from local servers where new user accounts are created. +---------------------------------------------------------------+ | Norman Howden | | | | School of Library and Information Sciences | | University of North Texas | | howden@lis.unt.edu (817) 565-2760 | +---------------------------------------------------------------+ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1993 09:09:38 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jessica Milstead <76440.2356@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Specifying what clients get and what the ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >>> I'd like to know how you (Jessica--because you brought it up--and anyone else--because I know there are a variety of ways to do it) make sure your clients know what they're getting (and aren't getting). Is it merely an oral agreement, or do you put it in writing? I try very hard to put everything in writing. Our memories are too fallible to trust oral agreement. I can't conveniently send out a contract example (as you requested elsewhere in your message), because they are all individual. Basically, if we've agreed on something I write it down. It's true that most of my contracts are big enough to warrant a fairly detailed written description of the project. If you are doing a job that's a few hundred dollars you might want to rely more on oral agreement for the details -- though I'd be very careful about this, no matter how small the contract. Jessica Milstead ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1993 09:10:10 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bing WEN Subject: Re: Indexing the Internet In-Reply-To: <9311232138.AA27849@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca> from "LJMCCLAI@ucs.indiana.edu" at Nov 23, 93 01:54:42 pm ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Many databases you access via gopher are not indexed - in the sense a librarian thinks about indexing. Two reasons: 1. The Internet has been up for too long and has accumulated too much information to be organized the way a library is organized. 2. Most if not all databases on the Internet are administered by non-librarians. What shall we do? Get involved. - bing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1993 09:12:33 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peter Mathews Subject: Techwr-l address ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I am sorry to have toask for an address this way but I don't have access to a gopher or any of the other fancy tools which let you search such things easily. Can someone please mail the address of the techwr-l list to mathews@acer.edu.au Many thanks in anticipation Peter Mathews Head, Library and Information Services Unit (LISU) Australian Council for Educational Research (ACER) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1993 10:19:11 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy Burns Subject: Re: Techwr-l address ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >Can someone please mail the address of the techwr-l list to >mathews@acer.edu.au > >Many thanks in anticipation > >Peter Mathews >Head, Library and Information Services Unit (LISU) >Australian Council for Educational Research (ACER) The address for the TECHWR-L list is as follows: LISTSERV@vm1.ucc.okstate.edu On the first line of the message, enter: SUBSCRIBE TECHWR-L If you have any problems, send a message to: ejray@okway,okstate.edu From a TECHWR-L subscriber, Nancy Burns National Solar Observatory, Tucson, AZ nburns@noao.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1993 10:19:46 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy Burns Subject: Re: Techwr-l address ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > >Can someone please mail the address of the techwr-l list to >mathews@acer.edu.au > >Many thanks in anticipation > >Peter Mathews >Head, Library and Information Services Unit (LISU) >Australian Council for Educational Research (ACER) After just sending you the address, I realized you need the bitnet address, so here it is: LISTSERV@OSUVM1.BITNET Nancy Burns National Solar Observatory, Tucson, AZ nburns@noao.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1993 10:29:53 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: FAQ update I have added the names and phone numbers of the services mentioned in the network connections messages. I have also included the citation to the article in Home Office Computing (thanks to Carolyn Weaver). If I have overlooked anything let me know--but please include the phone number for an omitted service so that I do not have to dig for it. Thanks and Happy Thanksgiving to U.S. subscribers! Charlotte Skuster INDEX-L FAQ BOOKS ON INDEXING? Knight, G. N. Indexing, The Art Of. Allen & Unwin, 1979. Lancaster, F. W. Indexing and Abstracting in Theory and Practice. U of Illinois Press, 1991. Lancaster, F. W. Vocabulary Control for Information Retrieval, 2nd ed. Information resources Press, 1986 Wellisch, H. Indexing and Abstracting, an International Bibliography ABC-Clio, 1980. Wellisch, H. Indexing from A to Z. H. W. Wilson, 1991. WHAT HAS BEEN WRITTEN ABOUT AUTOMATIC INDEXING? Books: Salton and McGill Introduction to Modern Information Retrieval Salton, Automatic Text Processing Van Rijsbergen Information Retrieval Jones, Karen Spark Information Retrieval Experiment Papers: Bell, C. and Jones, K. "Back-of-the-book Indexing: A Case for the Application of Artificial Intelligence", Informatics 5, ASLIB Pub., pp. 155-161, 1979 Bennion, B. "Performance Testing of a Book and its Index as an Information Retrieval System", JASIS, pp. 265-270, July 1970 Borko, H. "Experiments in Book Indexing by Computer" Information Storage and Retrieval, 6:5)16, 1970 Dillon, M. and McDonald, J. "Fully Automatic Book Indexing" Journal of Documentation 39(1):135-154, 1983 Dion, M. Thesaurus-Based Automatic Book Indexing", Information Processing and Management, 81(4):167-178, 1982 Salton, G. "Syntactic Approaches to Automatic Book Indexing", Proceedings of the 26th ACL, pp. 204-210, 1988 WHAT SOFTWARE DO INDEXERS USE? (All of these are for DOS machines...no Macs) IN>SORT Kensa Software P.O. Box 4415 Northbrook, IL 60065 (708) 559-0297 Macrex Bayside Indexing Service P.O. Box 3051 Daly City, CA 95015-0051 (415) 756-0821 FAX: (415) 757-1567 Cindex Indexing Research Box 18609 Rochester, New (716) 461-5530 FAX: (716) 442-3924 COURSES OR TRAINING FOR INDEXERS (OUTSIDE OF LIBRARY SCHOOLS)? Graduate School of the USDA Correspondence Programs Room 1114, South Agriculture Building 14th St. and Independence Ave. SW Washington, DC 20250 (202) 720-7131 Tuition: $269.00 (includes all materials) PROFESSIONAL SOCIETIES/ORGANIZATIONS FOR INDEXERS? (this question was not actually asked..but here's the answer anyway) American Society of Indexers (ASI) P.O. Box 386 Port Aransas TX 78373 (512) 749)4052 FAX: (512) 749-4052 Indexing and Abstracting Society of Canada Box 744 Station F Toronto Ontario Canada M4Y 2N6 National Federation of Abstracting and Information Services (NFAIS) 1429 Walnut Street Philadelphia PA 19102 (215) 563)2406 FAX: (215) 563-2848 Society of Indexers (SI) 16 Green Road Birchington, England CT79JZ Australian Society of Indexers (AusSI) GPO Box 1251L, Melbourne Victoria 3001, Australia NETWORK CONNECTIONS America Online (800) 227-6364 CompuServe (800) 848-8199 Delphi (800) 495-4005 GEnie (800) 638-9636 The Well (415) 332-4335 Real/Time Communications (512) 459-4391 See also. Maren, M. "The Age of E-Mail. Home Office Computing, December, 1993, 63-70. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1993 15:47:32 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "H-Amstdy Comoderator (Daytime Operator)" Organization: St. Peter's College, US Subject: Re: Techwr-l address ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > I am sorry to have toask for an address this way but I don't have access > to a gopher or any of the other fancy tools which let you search such things > easily. Do you have access to telnet? If so you can telnet to a public access gopher. Try telnetting to info.anu.edu.au in your part of the world (login with INFO). Sorry I don't know the address of the technical wroiting list. You can probably find in the ARACHNET list. For info on this, send to listserv@uicvm.uic.edu, leave your subject line blank, and include only this text: get listserv lists h-amstdy Regrads, Jeff Finlay H-Amstdy Comoderator =========================================================================