Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1993 09:45:24 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mick Washbrook Subject: FrameMaker indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I'm interested in learning whether there is anyone on the mailing list who regularly works with FrameMaker. Currently I'm faced with the task of updating two 750-page manuals. I gather that as software packages go, FrameMaker's indexing capability is quite good, even though it's a major task inputting the index markers. Does anyone know whether there are any indexing utilities that run on UNIX that might make my task a little easier? I'm also interested in reading other peoples' experiences in updating large software manuals that have formidable indexes. Thanks. mickw@autodesk.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1993 13:27:17 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: Frontmatter footnotes ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- In the past I have inserted a space (to be set as a "hair space") between the roman page numbers and the n: xiii n. 3 So far, no publisher I've worked with has objected to this. It is clear and doesn't break any traditions, as far as I can tell. Because a number of the publishers I work for like a hair space between the page number and the n, this seemed to me the most sensible solution. Using italics would be okay, but as Elizabeth Liddy pointed out at the ASI meeting, using different type means something is more important (at least in the eyes of the index users she tested so far), so I like to avoid adding different type faces unless the information truly is more important or different in some way. In my experience, footnotes in frontmatter may be informative without being all that important... Barbara E. Cohen (becohen@well.sf.ca.us) , ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1993 16:40:27 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paula Presley Subject: FrameMaker indexing In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of TUE 15 JUN 1993 08:43:40 EDT ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I have used FrameMaker regularly since end of 1992 (we went from a unix-based system--Mecca 3-- to FrameMaker 3.0.1 on Mac--it's terrific!) I also use Cindex on DOS for all my indexing (am anxiously awaiting the Mac version). Recently I prepared an "index" (list of names) using FrameMaker. After having used Cindex since version 1, I can't bring myself to refer to FrameMaker's list-making features as "indexing" features! It is extremely time consuming and certainly not the proper tool for making the kinds of indexes I make (back-of-book and academic serial annual index). If you look at the indexes in the FrameMaker manuals, you'll see the kind of output you get using FM's system of markers--it's not totally useless, but it shows marks of having been composed by untrained indexers. I'm not familiar with making technical manual or software manual indexes, so I can't say that FrameMaker would be useless... but I do know that for your index to be useful, you'll have to spend a lot of time. The question is, Do you have more time or more money? If more time that money, go ahead and use FM. If more money than time, hire somebody with expertise in the kind of indexing you want done. Paula Presley Assoc. Editor, The Thomas Jefferson University Press Copy Editor, The Sixteenth Century Journal Northeast Missouri State University McClain Hall 111L Kirksville, MO 63501 (816) 785-4525 FAX (816) 785-4181 Bitnet: AD15@NEMOMUS Internet: AD15%NEMOMUS@Academic.NEMOState.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1993 16:40:47 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paula Presley Subject: xxin? In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of MON 14 JUN 1993 08:05:50 EDT ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- You could italicize the "n" and leave an en-space between the roman numeral and the "n". In fact, when some of my authors insist on using small roman numerals in some citations of medieval material, I MUST mark an en-space because the numerals are followed by "r" (recto) and "v" (verso). Even with the en-space or even an em-space, it's hard to read: xvii r, xvix v, xvx r-v.... Maybe the combination of italic "n" and an en-space would be acceptable to your publisher Paula Presley Assoc. Editor, The Thomas Jefferson University Press Copy Editor, The Sixteenth Century Journal Northeast Missouri State University McClain Hall 111L Kirksville, MO 63501 (816) 785-4525 FAX (816) 785-4181 Bitnet: AD15@NEMOMUS Internet: AD15%NEMOMUS@Academic.NEMOState.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1993 09:45:33 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hannah King Subject: Indexing 10 volumes of a journal -- pricing suggestions requested ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I have been asked to index a 10 volumes of a journal (4 issues per volume; about 110 pages per issue; 5-7 articles per issue and book reviews). I've been asked to submit a "bid." What would all you experts out there bid and why? Should I base on pages (1100 approx)? on volumes? on issues? What is standard? How about a range say .50 per page to a $1.00 per page? What do ther publishers pay as a going rate? What's the least amount you'd accept? Hannah King SUNY HSC Library at Syracuse kingh@snysyrv1 kingh@vax.cs.hscsyr.edu 766 Irving Avenue Syracuse, NY 13210-2375 315-464-7109 315-464-7199 (FAX) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1993 14:30:43 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert Lee Hadden, US Geological Survey Library" Subject: Re: Indexing 10 volumes of a journal -- pricing suggestions requested ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I haven't done this for some time, but when I did a trade journal some years ago, I charged by the hour for completing the subject index (they knew the author and title stuff). As a librarian, I charged them my current rate of pay plus 10-15% since I used skills more than librarianship. All costs (postage, etc.) was charged back as well. The reaction when I told them how little I was paid was one of relief. They were afraid I would cost a lot, maybe as much as a printer or someone important... However, I was satisfied, as it brought in some badly needed Christmas money. As a federal employee, I can no longer do this kind of outside work at all, even on my own time. lee hadden usgs library ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I have been asked to index a 10 volumes of a journal (4 issues per volume; about 110 pages per issue; 5-7 articles per issue and book reviews). I've been asked to submit a "bid." What would all you experts out there bid and why? Should I base on pages (1100 approx)? on volumes? on issues? What is standard? How about a range say .50 per page to a $1.00 per page? What do ther publishers pay as a going rate? What's the least amount you'd accept? Hannah King SUNY HSC Library at Syracuse kingh@snysyrv1 kingh@vax.cs.hscsyr.edu 766 Irving Avenue Syracuse, NY 13210-2375 315-464-7109 315-464-7199 (FAX) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1993 14:31:13 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cammie Donaldson Subject: Bids At the ASI Meeting held in Alexandria, there was an excellent workshop on freelance business practices with recommendations on how to prepare bids, how to base rates, and so forth. Anyone that would like a copy of the hand-outs can send me their snail mail address and I will forward the information. There was a reference to a document which provides examples of standard rates that can be expected for various editorial tasks, including indexing. Also at ASI, an attendee warned all of us that it is not a good idea to discuss pricing or make recommendations on rates to be charged, etc. This was done by members of the American Translators Association (ATA), which is now facing legal charges of price-fixing by the government. This has been very costly for ATA. I'm not an expert on what can and can't be discussed, but I think that a group discussion on what to bid could be viewed as "price fixing," particularly by a zealous bureaucrat. Perhaps an ASI official can comment on this. Cammie Donaldson cmd@sps.com ***** Moderator's comment: This listserv is not sponsored by ASI, nor are all the subcribers members of ASI so I am not sure that there is an entity that could be sued in this regard. However, I am not an attorney... I'd be interested in what others think.... Charlotte ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1993 14:40:21 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul_Weiss@occshost.nlm.nih.gov Subject: ALA program announcement ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- PROGRAM ANNOUNCEMENT FOR ALA IN NEW ORLEANS "What's Another Word for Thesaurus?" Monday, June 28, 1993 2:00 pm - 5:30 pm Marriott Hotel Bissonet Room This program publicizes the new revision of the NISO Standard for the Construction, Format, and Management of Monolingual Thesauri. Thesauri can be important tools, not only for controlled vocabulary subject searching, but also for free text searching of both bibliographic and full text databases. The speakers will discuss the principles embodied in the standard, the standard's impact on existing and proposed vocabularies, and the standard's impact on online retrieval systems and their users. A question and answer session will follow the presentations. Speakers and Topics: "Thesaurus: The Word and the Standard" Bella Hass Weinberg Professor, Division of Library and Information Science, St. John's University "Reconciling Form and Genre Vocabularies" Laura Stalker Associate Director for Technical Services, Huntington Library "Comparing the Standard and LCSH Rules for Use" Sherry Kelley Acting Team Leader, Computer Files Team, Special Materials Cataloging Division, Library of Congress "Multiple Thesauri and the Proposed Standard" Gary Strawn Authorities Librarian, Northwestern University Libraries "The Importance of Standardization" Elaine Svenonius Professor, Graduate School of Library and Information Science, University of California, Los Angeles Moderated by Arlene G. Taylor, Columbia University Sponsors: ALCTS CCS Subject Analysis Committee RASD MOPSS Catalog Use Committee PLA Cataloging Needs of Public Libraries Committee ALCTS Catalog Form and Function Committee National Information Standards Organization Submitted by Paul J. Weiss, National Library of Medicine (member of the ALCTS Subject Analysis Committee subcommittee that reviewed the standard and planned the program) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1993 14:40:52 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: Indexing 10 volumes of a journal -- pricing suggestions requested In-Reply-To: <9306161346.AA06689@carson.u.washington.edu> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I index a number of health sciences journals. Two of the journals (for the same publisher) require a full subject index for each bimonthly index, plus an annual cumulation. The publisher pays a flat rate per issue (plus a bonus for the cumulation) which averages out to about $18-$20 per hour depending on the number of pages in the issue. For the other journals, I charge an hourly rate which varies depending on the complexity of the material and the depth of indexing that the publisher wants. For journals I would advise against using a page rate because of ads, variability of article depth, etc., and either go with an hourly rate ("not to exceed ___ hours") or a flat rate that is high enough to guarantee a reasonable return for your time. Carolyn Weaver Seattle, Wa. e-mail: On Wed, 16 Jun 1993, Hannah King wrote: > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > I have been asked to index a 10 volumes of a journal (4 issues per volume; > about 110 pages per issue; 5-7 articles per issue and book reviews). > I've been asked to submit a "bid." What would all you experts out there > bid and why? Should I base on pages (1100 approx)? on volumes? on issues? > What is standard? How about a range say .50 per page to a $1.00 per page? > What do ther publishers pay as a going rate? What's the least amount you'd > accept? > > Hannah King > SUNY HSC Library at Syracuse > kingh@snysyrv1 > kingh@vax.cs.hscsyr.edu > 766 Irving Avenue > Syracuse, NY 13210-2375 > 315-464-7109 > 315-464-7199 (FAX) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1993 09:26:01 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paula Presley Subject: xxin? In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of TUE 15 JUN 1993 15:42:45 EDT ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Oops, I read my own message where I advised using an en-space!! No, no, no! Use a THIN-space or HAIRLINE (depending on what program you and the publisher use). I appreciate the reply concerning the use of italics (different typefaceindicates something more important). Good point--and correct, too. Paula Presley Assoc. Editor, The Thomas Jefferson University Press Copy Editor, The Sixteenth Century Journal Northeast Missouri State University McClain Hall 111L Kirksville, MO 63501 (816) 785-4525 FAX (816) 785-4181 Bitnet: AD15@NEMOMUS Internet: AD15%NEMOMUS@Academic.NEMOState.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1993 09:26:27 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nancy C. Mulvany" Subject: Discussion of Prices & Periodical Indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- RE: Discussion of Prices & Price Fixing I cannot imagine when it would not be OK to discuss prices for services on this LIST. As Charlotte pointed out, this is not sponsored by the American Society of Indexers. It is a public forum. The primary legal concern in a context such as this is refraining from libelous statements. ASI is not in the same situation as ATA (American Translators Assn.) in that ASI does not, has not, and has no plans to recommend prices for indexing services. As an educational, non-profit organization--IRS 501(c)--ASI could easily get into trouble if it starts to act like a trade association or a union. RE: Periodical Indexing I agree that it is not in the indexer's best interest to charge by the page for periodical indexing. I generally charge per issue, usually $200-$300 for the type of periodicals I work on. Also in the *written* contract I include lots of caveats about the contract being based upon the current editorial focus, design, and length of the magazine. This way I'm covered if the magazine grows in size or density during the year, and the client is covered if it shrinks. It all comes down to how long it will take you to do it and how much you want to earn per hour. However, my plan won't work if you are dealing with material that varies in length each issue. If that is the case it's probably best to bill by the hour. -nancy nmulvany@well.sf.ca.us ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1993 13:57:12 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: Bidding on Journal Indexes ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Having just completed a (first) journal index, I bid using my regular hourly basis, taking into account thateach issue of this particular journal covers on topic in-depth but that each issue is unrelated to the others...in other words, four issues have separate topics that are only generally related. I expected (and had) few overlaps. On the other hand, they didn't want an index of too great detail--enough to cover the topics without treating them as though each issue were a book on the topic. I compromised by allowing larger inclusive page number ranges to stand and deleting fine-grained subheadings in some cases. The final job took less time than a book of the same length (709 pages), because I could rely on article titles and headings to develop most of the entries. In other words, developing the index vocabulary took less time than it would have for a book on a single topic of 709 pages. I didn't have to finesse subheads very much (except to condense some). In the end, I was able to complete the index in less time than a comparably sized book would have taken. On the other hand, I spent more time at the final edit making sure that there was some overall sense to the index, not 4 separate indexes interleaved (which is how I developed it). As for how much to charge, this is a topic I am always fretful of. Not because of any price-fixing controversy. I just think that you are probably the only person to know how much you need to make, and how fast you can work on a page, and how much revision you require, and what your overhead is. I think each indexer has different answers to each part of the cost "puzzle" and so no one answer works. If you are in doubt as to how much the client wants to pay (afraid to overbid), I usually find that asking helps. Then I can see exactly where the client is coming from. And usually I can work with the client's budget, if I want the job. On the job I just completed, I made an estimate based on my hourly rate, the client countered with a flat rate that they had available, and because they were close enough, we went with the flat rate. In the end, it took me slightly less time to do the index than I had estimated, so the flat rate was on target. I would also reiterate that ASI has several publications that touch on price equations. Then you can decide how much you need to make. Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1993 14:04:07 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: Thesaurus Standard Someone sent a message to Index-l asking if the draft of the NISO standard for thesauri is available electronically. My nimble fingers deleted the message before I counld forward it to the list. I think that was the gist of the message...if not, could whoever posted it please try again? Charlotte Skuster Index-l moderator ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1993 16:46:19 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "James D. Anderson." Subject: NISO standard for indexes press release ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Press release, 6/17/93 NISO Draft Standard for Indexes to be Submitted for Formal Consideration Alexandria, VA. -- The National Information Standards Organization (NISO) committee charged with revising the NISO standard for indexes and related information retrieval devices (Z39.4) plans to submit its fourth draft for formal consideration by voting members of NISO during the Fall of 1993. The Committee made changes to the 3rd draft at its meeting on May 20, 1993 in Alexandria, Virgina. Chairperson James D. Anderson of Rutgers University will incorporate changes into a 4th draft, send it out to Committee members and other interested persons for one more round of preliminary comment. If no major problems are noted, it will then go to NISO for distribution to its members in November 1993. Persons wishing an advance copy of the newly revised draft 4.0 may send an email request to janderson@zodiac.rutgers.edu. Persons desiring a paper copy should send a check of $12 payable to Rutgers The State University to: James D. Anderson, School of Communication, Information, and Library Studies, Rutgers University, 4 Huntington St., New Brunswick, NJ 08901. The Committee took its 2nd and 3rd formal votes at the beginning of the Alexandria meeting, turning back by votes of 4 to 2 two motions submitted by Nancy Mulvany. (The Committee's first formal vote resulted in a request to NISO to set up a separate committee to consider standards for arranging alphanumeric and other symbols.) The first Mulvany motion stated that, "The standard will acknowledge that an index is one form of information retrieval device that is a distinct, definable, authored document type that must conform to all the criteria listed in the 'Function of an Index' section of the British and international standards as well as additional criteria that may be added to the American standard." The second, related motion, asked that "The title of the standard be changed from 'Guidelines for Indexes in Information Retrieval' to 'Guidelines for Information Retrieval Devices.' The Committee remains committed to addressing every type of information retrieval index for every kind of text or document. To facilitate use by distinct segments of the indexing community, the Committee plans to create 4 guides to the standard, one each for: * print indexes to single documents (such as back-of-the-book indexes); * database indexes; * computer-produced indexes; and * indexes designed for electronic searching. The Committee continued to refine the vocabulary of indexing. One of the most problematic terms is "entry," which has several very different meanings within the indexing community. The Committee decided to use this term only for a single heading (including any subheading and sub-subheading) linked by a single locator to a documentary unit. In displayed indexes, duplicate headings are merged for display, but each separate locator represents a separate entry in the index. The display of a main heading and all its subheadings will be called an "entry array" to distinguish it from the individual entries that such an array encompasses. In other terminological changes, "multi-level indexes" replaced "articulated indexes" and "guidewords" replaced "scope headlines." The Committee modified suggestions regarding the use of prepositions in subheadings, but it still advocates natural language order in both headings and subheadings. Alphanumeric ordering continued to be controversial. The Committee reaffirmed its preference for word-by-word arrangement in which all punctuation is considered equivalent to a space. However, it will recognize a wider range of situations in which letter-by- letter ordering can be justified. The Committee to Revise the NISO Standard for Indexes was established in 1991. Its members are: James D. Anderson, Chairperson Rutgers the State University of NJ New Brunswick, NJ 08903 Barbara Anderson DIALOG Information Services Palo Alto, California Catherine Grissom U. S. Department of Energy Oak Ridge, Tennessee Nancy Mulvany Bayside Indexing Service Kensington, California Barbara Preschel Public Affairs Information Service (PAIS) New York, New York Deborah Swain IBM Cary, North Carolina Hans Wellisch University of Maryland College Park, Maryland # ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1993 09:03:02 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jessica Milstead <76440.2356@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Thesaurus standard ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I saw your request to the person who asked about electronic availability of the draft thesaurus standard. It isn't available electronically. The print form can be acquired from NISO. Publication is expected in late 1993. Please feel free to post this on the list if it will help. Jessica Milstead Member, NISO Standards Development Committee =========================================================================